finally, I'm done with LMS S/C

S

sch4400

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Finally, I'm done with LMS S/C. that was hard way for me.
anyway, I have many questions.

change things : injector 600cc , walbro 255 , spark plug(LFR6A-11) , crawford planum
HKS lega max exhaust , megan racing Y-pipe.


1. is it hard to start engine ? I can't start without gas padal after tuned. when start engine, I have to push the gas padal while turn on ignition key.

2. AFR gauge number is going down around 10.5. when I full push gas padal AFR number is 10.5, also, I full gas padal and then release gas padal AFR number is 10.0

3. shifter is "P" or "n" rpm is litlle going on and going down. Idle is instability.

4. Do I have to ECU and throttle body reset??

So, is it normal???
 
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It honestly doesn't sound like a good tune at all... 10.0-10.5 throughout?!?! That's pig rich. He should've targeted 11.0-11.5

Like I told you via text, they don't sound like they have any idea how to tune on UTEC.

Also, upping the injectors causes the issues you have with idle. There's absolutely NO WAY you need 600cc injectors, those are twin turbo application size for the VQ35DE motor. I suggested 440cc and they would have worked just fine. I'm in shock they recommended 600cc on a 6.5 lbs boost centrifugal supercharger.

---------- Post added at 06:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

This was still Harman Motive? What's the name of the tuner, I'd like to give the tuner and Harman Motive a call to see first wtf is up with 10.5 AFR on the tune and second to see wtf Harman Motive was thinking with 600cc injectors!

(btw the AFR WILL drop if you let off the gas because you're still dumping fuel in for WOT and when you lift the gas pedal you're closing the throttle body and allowing no more air, so you will get an initial drop then it'll rise back up to ~14.9 at idle)
 
tuner is not harman motive. but, harman mnotive recommend the tuner.
the name is church automotive testing.


no way to easy engine start?
 
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I bet your problem is the injectors. I run about 9.5 lbs of boost and have 510cc injectors on and it's still too much. Some how I have a feeling they cannot tune the Utec down for you to get the right AFR. When I was doing mine, I was told if I go over 380cc I'd have problem starting up. This only happens to me when the engine is hot.

I agree with Frankiago, either they when too rich because they don't know what they're doing, or the UTEC is not capable of adjusting the signal low enough. Quick fix would be to replace the Injectors.

Also, did they make sure you're running on all 6. When I had mine installed, one of the 6 injectors was not firing and it had the same symptoms.

Good luck
 
FXtion said:
. This only happens to me when the engin is hot.


Good luck
Click to expand...

yes, my fx is too. when the engine is cold it is fine to start the engine.

my scanner is not working.

but this is number.

1. lbft

285.2 / 96 / 6078 / ratio / 5,200
lbft / mph / rpm / tcf / 1.00
290.7 / 81 / 5164 / gain / 5.5

2. Hp

303.4 / 101 / 6450 / ratio / 5,200
hp / mph / rpm / tcf / 1.00
330.5 / 96 / 6102 / gain / 27.2
 
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I wonder, I push the gas padal when I start the engine, is there any problem?
also, Do I get another problem if I going to use the 600cc injectors ??
 
Can you lower the base fuel pressure any? The issue is that on startup, the UTEC isn't doing anything and the motor floods since you're running much larger than stock injectors. When the car is cold, the fuel pressure drops as it hasn't been running for a while. When the car is hot, the fuel pressure is higher as it takes a while for the pressure to drop. I had these issues on a previous turbo'd car. I had to install a push button ignition that bypassed the fuel pump on startup, but I don't think it's a possibility on the FX.

I think your only reasonable solution would be to go with smaller injectors. 600's aren't necessary for what you're doing.
 
those injectors are HUGE & trying to tune them to scale back enough & get a good idle & startabilty & part throttle driveability is no easy task at all, way to large for what your doing... you'd only have to deal with tyrying to scale such large injectors if you were making monster power & needed that much fuel upstairs... rediculous overkill for just an lms...
 
turbocad6 said:
those injectors are HUGE & trying to tune them to scale back enough & get a good idle & startabilty & part throttle driveability is no easy task at all, way to large for what your doing... you'd only have to deal with tyrying to scale such large injectors if you were making monster power & needed that much fuel upstairs... rediculous overkill for just an lms...
Click to expand...
That's what I tried telling him/them! I suggested 440cc injectors!

They told HIM "oh no you'll need 550cc" which I don't even think is an injector size common to the VQ motor! I told him 440cc will be plenty for the small amount of boost you're running on this thing :frown:

600cc injectors will run you like 500whp on a TT setup...
 
If you don't do something about the AFR being too Rich, you're gonna ruin your Piston Rings.

Replacing the injectors back down to 440 or even 380cc is relatively easy. You'll just have to re-tune.

Since you said Chruch Automotive did the tune, I'd take it back to him if I were you.
 
FXtion said:
Replacing the injectors back down to 440 or even 380cc is relatively easy. You'll just have to re-tune.
Click to expand...
Not sure 380 will handle it... might be running the injectors between 90-100% IDC... 440 is definitely on target, but now he's gotta sell slightly used injectors that they sold to him for like $500, maybe get $350 out of them, and then turn around and buy another set of injectors at 440cc... they wasted a lot of his money by going with 600cc...
 
***MODS - THIS IS AN INFORMAL/CUSTOMER SERVICE RELATED POST ONLY. DO NOT DELETE. WE ARE NOT VENDING or ATTEMPTING TO VEND TO THIS FORUM. ***


There must have still been some serious miscommunication due to our language barrier and your translators. It comes as a shock to us as we had patiently & continually forewarned & advised with each & every step before you made these decisions with your vehicle.

First & foremost. The Supercharger Kit, UTEC, & Wideband gauge were used prior to installation on your vehicle.

Engine Management:
UTEC does not control closed loop functions, as well as start up & idle calibrations. We've continuously advised you against using UTEC for these reasons & recommended tuning of the STOCK ECU via UpRev Reflash. You requested against our advise to use UTEC Engine Management upon installation, prior to your first tune, after your first tune, and prior your final tune.

Fuel Injectors:
We ordered & Installed your specific fuel injectors under the recommendation of the tuner. Which in turn, we authorized with you.

Wideband Gauge:
Church Automotive Testing utilizes professional A/F monitoring equipment, which was used throughout your entire tuning process. The wideband gauge in your vehicle is subject to inaccuracy due to prior use and potentially o2 Sensor, the unit itself, and/or off calibration. We recommend using a new unit specifically the AEM UEGO for proven accuracy & reliability.

Again we advise removing the UTEC system, getting a re-tune via the stock ECU. As you can see other members have posted having issues with larger injectors. Using the stock ecu with Custom Up Rev re-flash tuning can alleviate these issues and more with maximum flexibility & reliability.

Best Regards,
Harman Motive
 
1. Church does not do Factory ECU tuning without UpREV.
2. An UpRev system including retuning will Cost $$$.
3. You'll probably have more problems staying with UTECH with the way you have it setup.
4. Driving your FX the rich will cost a lot more in repairs later than spending the money to fix it now.

my suggestion will be to cut your loss and do a TechnoSquare tune. They should be able to take out the UTech, and just tune your Factory ECU.

We have all made costly mistakes in the past. But we have learned one thing. There is an abundance of knowledge here that can help alleviate most costly mistakes. Consider asking a lot more questions and researching your options before spending your money on Mods.
 
first of all the utec does do injector scaling, so even if it doesn't do closed loop fuel control per say, it can still be scaled to work with a little larger injectors... yeah, not so hot for HUGE injectors but were talking a 6psi system here, not a twin turbo monster.

second of all with a lms at 6psi you are not going to need a huge amount of add'l fuel. if I was doing an lms install I would have stayed with the stock injectors & upgraded the fuel system with a walbro AND a pressure regulated fuel return system. this would maintain the stock startup & idle & part throttle drivability perfectly, then, when under boost the fuel pressure & the volume would be way up & the utec would have no problem managing this... no way the stock injectors wouldn't do the job at 6 psi with a pressure regulated return system bumping the fuel pressure way up while under boost & low vacuum conditions...

it's not always a matter of whats used as much as it is a matter of how it is used... knowing the limitations of the utec why go & use huge injectors KNOWING it's not going to work right? to prove your right & the customer is wrong? if you know something is not going to work then why even take on the job? one attitude would be to try & see how what you have can be used best (if you care) & another attitude would be screw it, the customer says just use it so just throw it in & then let him see that it don't work (if you don't care) I find it very hard to believe that a professional tuner couldn't figure out a way to get a utec to work with an lms.... only way would be if you just don't want it to work & don't care about anything other than just getting paid, regardless of the outcome... I refuse to believe this couldn't be made to work if you wanted it to... would it have been as good as the "correct" way you'd suggest? don't even matter, because it def could have been done in a way to be adequate & not like what this poor guy winded up with... it's one thing to have your own preferred way of doing things & it's quite another to just refuse to try & work with something other than that..
 
turbocad6 said:
little larger injectors... yeah, not so hot for HUGE injectors but were talking a 6psi system here, not a twin turbo monster.
Click to expand...
This is the part that boggles my mind. 600cc injectors on my Evo... not big at all considering that's what it comes with stock. 600cc injectors in a VQ motor??? Like you said those are twin turbo monster numbers. I told Jay here that 440cc injectors would be perfect for this application and they suggested 550cc injectors (which to my knowledge aren't even a common size for the VQ motor?) and then got 600cc injectors probably because DW doesn't make 550cc.

380cc (stock)
440cc (what I recommended)
600cc (what Harman Motive ordered)
800cc (biggest drop-ins DW makes that I'm aware of, without the need of a spacer)

I spoke with you guys over the phone and was wondering why you wanted to go with a flash when he has a UTEC already installed (by you). The only reason is because you guys prefer it, and I asked if the tuner would have a problem with the UTEC and you guys said no. I made Jay, your customer, well aware of the issues UTEC has before it takes over the engine and fuel management and how there would be a slight hesitation somewhere between 2500-3000 RPM. His issues at startup and idle are SOLELY due to the huge injectors.

What I also informed him is that the UpRev tune would do NOTHING about monitoring knock above 5,000 RPM whereas the UTEC still monitors knock all the way to redline.

I want to know what the thought process was in getting 600cc injectors? Have you guys not tuned a 350Z or G35 before?

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------
HarmanMotive said:
Fuel Injectors:
We ordered & Installed your specific fuel injectors under the recommendation of the tuner. Which in turn, we authorized with you.

Wideband Gauge:
Church Automotive Testing utilizes professional A/F monitoring equipment, which was used throughout your entire tuning process. The wideband gauge in your vehicle is subject to inaccuracy due to prior use and potentially o2 Sensor, the unit itself, and/or off calibration. We recommend using a new unit specifically the AEM UEGO for proven accuracy & reliability.
Click to expand...
So... to give Harman Motive some credit, it was the tuner who recommended 600cc?!?! But on the other hand, why did you agree 600cc was needed? No idea about fuel requirements on forced induction VQ motors?

I will agree with the wideband gauge issue. I'd like to see a printout of the dyno though, as it most likely is chillin out around 11.0 ...
 
[/QUOTE]I will agree with the wideband gauge issue. I'd like to see a printout of the dyno though, as it most likely is chillin out around 11.0 ...[/QUOTE]

The dyno paper is first tune.
I got a engine ignition problem when I got a first tune then got home. i was stayed my car with turn on the engine after 5 minute engine was died.
so I went church for fix engine die problem. after second tune car is fucked up.
I think wideband guage is normal. first tune that is just little strange. but right now, totally mess up. start the engine afr guage number is between 10.0 ~ 15.5(shiffter just "P").
also, when I driving the car release the gas padal , some time guage number 19.9 ,,,some time 14.? like that.
"engine service soon" lamp going on, also, the navi screen there is screen about fuel economy. but fuel economy screen doesnt working also, empty distance not working.
$30 oct 91 gas - 300miles. the screen appear when I got $30 oct.91 gas
I can not using my car befor replace injector re-tune (dyno)
and I wonder, If I get re-tune...everything will be good?? economi screen,engine service soon lamp,afr gauge number...
also, Do I have to pay $150 for re-rune at church autotesting after replace 440 injector?

I already paid first tune - $400 for utec programing.
second tune - $150 after replace injector 660cc
How much do I have to pay for dyno??

I heard about the lms s/c system. frnakiago,hyme,dr2k said to me. don't need to fuel pump,injector. but, want more safe...just buy that.
so, they(harman,tuner) recommend the 550cc injector, so I showed my text msg to harman motive adan from frankiago.
frankiago sent me need 440cc...but adan said 550cc need it. tuner recommend.
so I agree.because, they know much more better than me. and they ordered for me. but I don't know what they ordered.
and...they installed just 600cc.
and re-tune. after re-tune many problem in my car. but why do I have to pay for everything? and why they said everythings are my fault, and why all of this is my responsibility??
I can not understand.
 
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HarmanMotive said:
***There must have still been some serious miscommunication due to our language barrier and your translators. It comes as a shock to us as we had patiently & continually forewarned & advised with each & every step before you made these decisions with your vehicle.
Click to expand...

adan...u said language barrier. yes, I can not speak English well.
but I can understand what you said, because my friends explain me.
I know what I made these decisions without injector.
first, I want to use UTEC. I told you what I want.
second, I want to install the this used supercharger.

but Do you remember? I dont want to use 550cc injector. so I showed the text msg about the 440cc injector from my friend.
but you said, I have to need 550cc. that's waht tuner recommend. right?
and you were ordered for me. and you ordered 600cc.
Did you ask me what you oredered and what you installed??
also, Did you tell me If the big injector problem with stock ECU?
you just told me. UTEC is not really good. but If you want to use UTEC, just go ahead.
never told me about big injector.

I think, all of problem is coming with big injector. why Do I have to waste money what tuner's worng recommend
why did you order big injector? just tuner recommend?

why did not you explain with big injector problem?

I didn't hear anything about big injector problem from you.

so, you said all of that is my problem?? because I can not speak English??

anyway, I don't want to argue like this. also I don't wanna find out who's fault? who is mistake??


you can not say like this , everything is my fault and my decision because language barrier and my translators.

I want just finish tune my car. thats what I want.
 
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